Scotland.

Pearl

Pearl

Administrator
Staff member
Not wanting to start WW3, I would just like to a light hearted discussion on the pending vote in Scotland.

I love Scotland its a beautiful and lively place filled with lovely people and amazing scenery.

I would hate to see it separated from the the rest of the UK but I think if the people vote yes then we need to accept that.

I don't think any country should be linked to another if the majority of its inhabitants don't want to be.

I have spoken to many people in Scotland about their thoughts on this subject and it seems the further North you go the less likely they are to vote yes.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens in September.
 
I thought it had already happened. Must have read it wrong. I suppose they agreed to let it go up for a vote. With the Russian situation, that is how I heard about Scotland. How do the rest of the UK think about it? Here in the States, Texas has wanted to leave for sometime now.
 
What is their reasoning for wanting to leave? How would that affect social services that the people get from the Government? They would start their own I presume.
 
There voting in September to become a separate country. They no longer want to be governed by the English parliament. To honest either do many Englishmen but thats a different matter.
 
There is a democratic issue especially for the rest of the UK if Scotland do become independent. It is one of those issues that politicians won't talk about until it happens, but there is a reality to it. The rest of the UK needs to prepare itself for permanent Tory Governments on a minority vote if Scotland leaves.

2010 election Scottish MP's

Labour 41 - 42% of vote
Lib Dems 11 - 18.9% of vote
SNP 6 - 19.9% of vote
Conservative 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - 16.7% of vote

You can perhaps understand why many people in Scotland would be ok with independence when you see that one Tory mp and the fact that the Tory support is dead North of the border, yet they have to put up with Tory Governments telling them what to do. You've more chance of finding the Loch Ness Monster in Scotland than a Tory MP.

Interesting also that the independence charge is led by the SNP, yet Scotland would probably be ruled by the Scottish Labour Party if past national results are anything to go by. SNP only got 20% of the Scottish vote, Labour 42% last time.

So, the national Government majority party has 1 mp in Scotland! An absolute joke of British democracy. The Lib Dems are part of the coalition and their 11 count, but they are the minority party. Conservatives wouldn't need them with No Scotland.

National Result 2010

Conservative 307
Labour 258
Lib Dems 57
Others 28

So, take away the Scottish seats and this is what you get.

Conservative 306
Labour 217
Lib Dems 46
Others 22

Tory majority of 21.

Without boundary changes in the South it is unlikely that Labour ever get elected again, at least not without LibDem support. Some would say great to that, but considering all UK Governments are elected on a minority vote it isn't necessarily a good thing for democracy. If Scotland does vote for independence - and it should be their choice - the rest of the UK is essentially an English Parliament more than ever before and is unlikely to be anything other than Tory, with the alternative being a Lab/Lib coalition.

Labour would need to become more Tory than ever before to get those southern votes. One chance Labour might have is if UKIP get enough Tory votes at enough seats to let the Labour candidate in, hardly democratic. UKIP has no chance of winning many seats anyway because of the First Past The Post system and the way this traditionally benefits the Conservative and Labour Parties at the expense of all others. A third party in the UK needs to get about 30% of the vote to win a significant number of seats, say 50-100. In the 2007 election LibDems had 22% of vote 62 seats, Tories 32% 198, Labour 35%, 355 seats. The vagaries of the system mean that Labour can win big without Scottish seats, but it would rely on split and protest votes against the Tories to do so as happened in 2007.

It should also be noted that Scotland, like Wales and N Ireland already has a degree of autonomy, their own parliament and budgets, but within the power structure of the UK and National Parliament. There's nothing wrong with Scotland deciding on their own future, but no one in England and the rest of the UK should kid themselves that it won't effect the rest of the UK.
 
Thank you Philosopher Clegg on your intelligence of this topic. Very informative. Sound like this would be a win for the Scots.

Here in the states it doesn't seem much difference anymore between our 2 major parties. There are so many lobbyist " buying votes" I feel our 2 party system has melted into one and the lobbyist are the ones running this democracy.
 
Pearl said:
So Clegg, politics aside, are you for or against the Yes vote?
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I honestly don't really have a view on it either way, other than if they vote to stay that's good, but if they want to go it alone then hopefully the relationship with the UK should remain positive and one of co-operation. Geography dictates we should be friends and allies.

If we believe in self-determination then Scotland should have their say. Our politicians are often quick to support self-determination when it suits their interest, but oppose it when it is not to their liking, the Ukraine/Crimea issue being headline news in that regard at the moment. I can understand why those in Scotland may feel independence is best, but equally there may be a downside for them. Financially and economically it is not clear if it is a good idea, similar to the wider UK debate about whether leaving the EU would be good or not. The fact that Scotland may look to still keep the pound if they leave, something opposed by Westminster, suggests that some things haven't been thought out that well.

I should also have said in my previous post that the current Scottish Parliament is majority SNP, but is elected on a different voting system. This might suggest that the people vote differently when it comes to UK elections than for the Scottish Parliament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament
 
brendalovescompo said:
Thank you Philosopher Clegg on your intelligence of this topic. Very informative. Sound like this would be a win for the Scots.

Here in the states it doesn't seem much difference anymore between our 2 major parties. There are so many lobbyist " buying votes" I feel our 2 party system has melted into one and the lobbyist are the ones running this democracy.
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I agree Brenda, doesn't much matter who you vote for anymore, all in the same.
 
Some have suggested that if Scotland goes independent then perhaps the English regions might want to follow!

Come back Mercia, Wessex and such like!

It would give rise to calls for an Independent Yorkshire!
 
I have wondered that myself Barmpot, everyone else wanting to break away. That should tell the government something.:30:. " Hey we don't like you". I think phil Clegg mentioned it could hurt Scotland economically. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.
 
brendalovescompo said:
I have wondered that myself Barmpot, everyone else wanting to break away. That should tell the government something.:30:. " Hey we don't like you". I think phil Clegg mentioned it could hurt Scotland economically. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.
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Do you mean Nick Clegg? :D
Or as I call him " The hit wonder"
 
As someone resident in Scotland (and a non-Scot, an Anglo-Irishman) I suppose it behoves me to say something on this topic. I do so a bit reluctantly - I remain totally un-enamoured of the new site. I still have extreme difficulty finding anything and I was not impressed with the somewhat snide comments I got from one of the administrators last time I commented on the site. But that is peripheral to this issue.

I could go on at length but for once I won't. Just a few generalisations which might provoke further debate or might just kill it stone dead.

One point for Pearl. I quote her: "They no longer want to be governed by the English parliament." That is the type of shorthand that maddens the Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish). There is no such entity as 'the English parliament'. Westminster is the parliament of the United Kingdom. The Scottish separatists are very much playing on that at the moment. They are saying they want to separate from England totally avoiding saying this will imply separation from their fellow Celts, the Welsh and the Irish (and the Cornish).

Someone has stated that if the Scots want to go it is up to them. I have lots of reservations. First off, who are the Scots? I will get a vote because I am resident here. As far as I am concerned, Sir Alex Ferguson has far more right to vote in this than I have. He was born and raised here. It is far more his land than mine. But I will get a vote and he will not.

Another thing which annoys me. The so called White Paper from the Scottish government, (more a party political manifesto for the SNP) states that if there is a vote for separation (I do not call it independence, no nation now is independent) as a British citizen normally resident in Scotland, I will automatically become a Scottish citizen. NO WAY!!!!

Two points on matters mentioned on the England situation. Not long ago the North East of England was offered a degree of autonomy in a referendum. Overwhelmingly rejected.

Current constituency boundary imbalances are working NOT in favour of the Conservatives but in favour of Labour. The Liberal Democrats in Coalition refused to let the current constituency set up go to the Boundaries Commission when the Conservatives would not allow House of Lords reform.

Finally - and I have waxed more lyrical than I intended - I despair when I read people apathetically declaring that voting is irrelevant and each party is the same. We have democracy, let's change things. To quote someone:
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.” Could have been Edmund Burke but there is debate.
 
Big Unc said:
As someone resident in Scotland (and a non-Scot, an Anglo-Irishman) I suppose it behoves me to say something on this topic. I do so a bit reluctantly - I remain totally un-enamoured of the new site. I still have extreme difficulty finding anything and I was not impressed with the somewhat snide comments I got from one of the administrators last time I commented on the site. But that is peripheral to this issue.
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Must say that I too have experienced some awkwardness with the site, although seemed OK at first have over time found one or two changes which seem to spoil some of the fun. Can not, for example, include a smiley (or emoticon is I am being pedantic) in the body of a reply. Not sure why?

However I had wondered where you were; and thought that this topic would prompt some comment.

Love the use of the word "behoves" however.
 
I'm glad you replied to this Big Unc. I enjoy reading your posts. Please post more!!
 
barmpot said:
Must say that I too have experienced some awkwardness with the site, although seemed OK at first have over time found one or two changes which seem to spoil some of the fun. Can not, for example, include a smiley (or emoticon is I am being pedantic) in the body of a reply. Not sure why?

However I had wondered where you were; and thought that this topic would prompt some comment.

Love the use of the word "behoves" however.
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Pedantic Barmpot?
 
"They no longer want to be governed by the English parliament." That is the type of shorthand that maddens the Scots (and the Welsh and the Northern Irish). There is no such entity as 'the English parliament'. Westminster is the parliament of the United Kingdom. The Scottish separatists are very much playing on that at the moment.

I said this because ever Scotsman I have spoken to on the Yes side have quoted that exact thing, they see Scotland has being ruled by the English. I feel the same Westminister has been voted in by all four nationalities but ever Scots/Welsh?Irishman...... And woman I've spoken too all call it the English parliament. Being married to an Irishman and having Welsh in laws I hear it all the time.
 
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